The Morning Drive X Shiyun| ONE FM 91.3

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Shiyun joins Lavinia Tan and The Flying Dutchman on The Morning Drive show. She shares the story behind TTKC, from its beginnings at a neighbourhood playground in Toa Payoh to the two community spaces it has today, where children can play, explore, make choices and belong. She talks about what children have taught the adults around them, why relationships are at the heart of the work, and what it means to build a community where children’s voices genuinely shape the space.

This transcript has been lightly formatted for readability. The conversation is presented in full.

Origins At the Playground

Lavinia: We're live on Facebook, and we're with the founder and executive director of 3Pumpkins, Lin Shiyun, here to talk about letting kids be kids, as we tell you more about Tak Takut Kids Club, creating a space where children can play, explore, make choices, build confidence and, I love this last bit, simply belong.

TFD: So important for kids to belong. Thank you so much for joining us this morning.

Shiyun: Thank you. Good morning.

TFD: For someone hearing about 3Pumpkins and Tak Takut Kids Club for the first time, what is it, and what made you start it?

Shiyun: 3Pumpkins started as a community arts organisation. I come from an arts background, I was doing producing, but I always believed that the arts need to be accessible to people, and it should be created with the people.

This was around 2016. I had been doing arts for about ten years, and I was looking at how our arts and culture development is really in the city centre.

Kids living in rental flats could go to the museum for free, they can go to the Esplanade, there are free programmes, but the accessibility is actually not there. To get to the city centre you need time, you need someone to bring you there, you need money for transport and food.

So how do we bring the arts into the neighbourhood, and make the arts part of daily life for the kids? It started from there, how do you make the arts accessible, and how do we create with people? So I just went to the playground, and brought art materials left over from exhibitions. I was at Toa Payoh actually, nearby; I went there every Saturday at the same time to play with the kids, and I did that for three years. It started from there actually, how do make the arts accessible and what is the role of the artist?

Shiyun: It's also to discover what are the realities of people, and how do we tell the story. So I just spent time with the kids at the playground, and it was like a rabbit hole. From there you get to know more, what the gaps are, and do more about it. Because the arts is a safe space, the kids used the arts to create and express themselves, and I started to realise the kids really have a lot of problems.

This can be from financial, mental health, education, but I think something that is in common is that something is missing at home and that is relationship. Families may be going through something, so there's not much care for the kids; relationships are compromised there. And they tend not to have that relationship in school also, because children learn how to communicate at home first, so at school, those relational skills might be compromised too.

So imagine a child's life: no good relationship at home, and not in school. Where do they go? They go to the streets. That's when gangs are very attractive.

TFD: They are, because gangs always promise you a family and brotherhood.

Shiyun: So my thinking is: what about a good gang in the neighbourhood? And I was seeing that week on week, kids do want to come, and they bring their friends. In social service work we talk about outreach, door-knocking. I realised I didn't have to do that, because the kids would just bring their friends, and they would probably bring their friends who are on the streets anyway.

TFD: When you did this, at the playground in Toa Payoh, how long did you do it for?

Shiyun: Three years.

Lavinia: And each session, you'd just be there the whole afternoon?

Shiyun: The whole afternoon, yeah.

Lavinia: And what kind of activities? Would you come with a set craft for the day, or just let it be a free space for the kids to create?

Shiyun: I tend to think of the arts as a space where people can express themselves. It's not that children come and learn how to make art, there's no good art. It's paint and paper; the kids come in and express themselves. And week on week the activity evolves, it's organic, depending on what the kids want to do. Over time more and more volunteers came in, and they came with their own ideas too. So it developed together with the community.

TFD: And it takes place in just a space, under the block?

Shiyun: It's a playground.

The Kids Bring Their Friends

TFD: We're going to jump onto our Facebook Live and carry on the chat, come and join us. So that's quite amazing. The kids come on their own, it's not like they're brought by the parents?

Shiyun: Most of the time they are basically on their own. That's why they hang out downstairs at the playground, looking for company.

TFD: So they make a conscious decision to come.

Lavinia: I like that. And they bring their friends.

Shiyun: Even now that we have a club, it's similar. The kids come in first, they bring their friends, then we contact the parents. It's the other way around from most programmes, where the parents give consent and then bring their kids, and there it's very hard to reach the kids, because the parents aren't free to bring them. Here, the kids are in first.

Lavinia: Are there any issues around parental consent, since they're minors and it's the kids coming to you first? Do you have to say, can you get your parent to sign this form?

Shiyun: Of course. But we make the form very simple. They come in, we get to know the kids first, then we get to know the parents. The majority is fine. Sometimes we have parents who say, no, I don't want my kid coming down here, they have something else to do, but that also means there's care at home, so that child is maybe not our priority. Our priority is kids whose parents are more absent.

TFD: When you started Tak Takut Kids Club, you said it was a social experiment. What were you hoping to find?

Shiyun: A child's environment is basically between the school and the home, so how can community step in? If the community steps in to play a role, to have a trusted relationship with the kids, what would happen? That was my thought. At the playground, I was always learning from the kids what they need.

They were dragging cardboard from the minimart and building a "study club" at the playground, so I started to realise they want a club, a space of their own. We looked at existing spaces, there was a seniors' club we used for a bit, but I felt the children needed a space of their own, so they have ownership. At the end of the day we want to build a sense of belonging for the kids, to a community. That's when the club came about: setting up a space that is for them, and with them.

Lavinia: A quick question, you talked about wanting to make the arts more accessible, and that's why you started these organic sessions, going to the playground and meeting the kids. But by doing that, it made you more aware of everything that was going on. Like you said, you fell deeper and deeper into that rabbit hole.

Shiyun: It's funny, because as I was doing it, and especially after setting up Tak Takut Kids Club, I've been recognised more as a social worker. In fact, when 3Pumpkins became a charity, we came under the National Council of Social Service rather than the arts.

Lavinia: And are you okay with how that has progressed?

Shiyun: I don't really care anymore, are you a social worker, are you what. It's very hard to pigeonhole this work, especially because we are human-centric, child-centric. When you focus on a child, it's actually everything: social support, education, health, the arts, culture. You can't really pigeonhole it. We're kind of in everybody's lane, but in nobody's lane. It's about meeting a child where they are.

Lavinia: I like that, because you've kept your eyes and mind open to what's going on, you were able to properly identify what was needed, how to get through to them, how to get them into the club, and what they needed. Everything worked out in the end.

What has changed in seven years?

TFD: You've been doing this for seven-odd years now?

Shiyun: The club, seven years.

TFD: Have you seen a change in children over those seven years, their needs, their wants, their attitudes?

Shiyun: Change happens every other day, but let's look at seven years. I see this as community development work. Imagine a child coming in at nine years old, now they're sixteen, seventeen. We have a few pioneering children who are now in polytechnic, doing community development and psychology.

Lavinia: You feel that might be because of the influence of their time with you?

Shiyun: Could be. They're also coming back and initiating their own ideas. For example, one of the youths saw that at the Sunday football sessions for kids in the Boon Lay neighbourhood, some of the smaller kids get bullied, "you're not so good, go to the side." So he wanted to set up a club for the smaller kids, where he will coach them. That's how community development works: children become youth, and youth give back. And they understand the community very well, so they design the activities, and they design them better than us.

TFD: That is truly remarkable. Is there any particular child or moment that really captures what TTKC is all about?

Shiyun: Everyday there's a lot of fun, we do the arts, we also go into cooking. But ultimately, this is about being a safe space.

One of the earliest encounters I had. I realised we had to continue TTKC when a child texted me and said a loan shark was going after her, because her father was in debt, and somehow the loan shark went after her.

TFD: Let's hold that story, we'll take it onto radio. [Song break] It's 8.21 and we're talking to Shiyun, founder and executive director of 3Pumpkins.

A safe space, and safeguarding

Lavinia: You were telling us how you came to realise TTKC needs to continue, because it's a safe haven for so many children, you were sharing a story.

Shiyun: There was a child, she was about ten or eleven at the time. For a year she was very quiet, just participating in the activities. And one day I received a text from her, she needs help, this loan shark is going after her. So we intervened; we got in touch with the police.

We also realised she had a social worker, but often the social worker may not have the relationship with the child, because they're working with the adults. So the child's perspective and the child's lived experience are sometimes not known to the social workers. And children are actually afraid to tell adults, because often they get scolded.

So I realised that is another part of TTKC's work: safeguarding children. Once you build a sense of belonging, children open up, they will tell you what's happening at home, what's happening in their life. You know their needs better, at the same time you know their strengths better too. It all anchors back to relationship. And from that relationship, you find out so much about the child.

Why "Tak Takut"

Lavinia: In a way it's such a gift that you get to be this trusted adult in their life. Can I take it back a little for everyone, how did the name come about? Tak Takut means "don't be afraid", "don't be scared".

Shiyun: It was from those few years at being at the playground. You'd see people fighting; some are very avoidant. And you see that it's coming from fear of something, fear of being judged, fear of losing out. So it goes into fight mode or flight mode. But in street lingo, you'll also hear things like, "I'm not scared of you, ah."

TFD: Yeah, "you think I'm scared of you?"

Shiyun: I thought that was quite fun, how can we change that meaning for the child? To build real confidence. Like, you're really not scared.

Lavinia: I love that. I want to be part of this club.

Getting involved

TFD: With that in mind, if someone is listening to this now and thinks, I'd like to get involved in this: how do they contact you? How do they start?

Shiyun: We have two clubs now, one is in Boon Lay, and the other in Lengkok Bahru, in the Redhill area. People can get involved by being volunteer befrienders, they come in weekly to befriend the children.

You can always go to the 3Pumpkins Instagram and sign up to be a volunteer. We're also looking into developing different types of volunteering. We have community workers and befrienders, and there are many needs on the ground, so we're also looking at committees of sorts: for example, people who are good at maths education.

Lavinia: Because you've identified all these various other needs. A quick question, about these befrienders and volunteers: what if a volunteer has her kids and would like to get them involved, to be there and interact with the other kids? Do you guys do something like that?

Shiyun: [If] the child is slightly older, upper primary, then it's possible, so they can also guide?

Lavinia: You're looking for them to guide the younger kids?

Shiyun: I think it's always about coming in, we want to make friends with people first. They have to come in, do a day and experience it, because our programme is a little bit different. We do have a fixed time, there's cooking, there's arts, and then you play outdoors, but in between it's all very unstructured.

Kids come in and say, I want to make this thing, and we just go along. So it's different from the usual structured workshop, where you come in and teach the kids how to make something. You kind of need to vibes along. It takes some personality and character to be able to do that.

Lavinia: I remember you said some kids at the playground were trying to set up a study club. Is there an element of school or schoolwork?

Shiyun: We have a seven-to-eight o'clock slot which we call Quiet Time.

Lavinia: That's when they can do their work or reading?

Shiyun: Again, it's something the children can choose, they bring their work in.

Lavinia: Do they do work? Because if I was a kid, I'd make the choice not to.

Shiyun: Yeah, nah… We still have to do a bit of work on that.

"I'm done being useful"

TFD: Let's go back onto Facebook, I've got a question. In these two clubs, you get kids coming in saying, I want to do this, I want to do that. Do you get kids coming in to talk their problems out, problems at home, problems at school?

Shiyun: We do have kids who come in and want to do this and that. Some of them will just say, "I don't want to do anything today. I'm done being useful." I've heard that before. And it's like, okay, great. You don't have to be useful now. You can just sit there. And some, especially the older kids, upper primary and secondary kids, tend to come in wanting to find someone to talk with.

TFD: I would imagine, especially if you've got no relationship at home and that spreads into school. You really don't have anyone, not so much to lean on, but someone to bounce off.

Shiyun: Yes. And especially in the community as a third space, there's no expectation. In school you're expected to perform to a certain standard. But when you come to the community, the level of judgement is not really there. You can just be yourself, be vulnerable, and share.

The adults' job description

Lavinia: That's really impactful. I can see why what you do with 3Pumpkins and TTKC is, quite simply, let kids be kids, give them a place to belong. It's really very special, what you do.

Shiyun: In fact, a few years ago, we were wondering: what is really the adult's role here? And I think it applies to parents as well. So we actually held a town hall to ask the children.

Lavinia: Oh!

Shiyun: So, what are the adults here for? And they gave us our job description.

Three things. First: watch us play. Second: play with us. And the third: be there when something goes wrong.

TFD: That would be the big one, be there when something goes wrong.

Lavinia: I just think it's amazing that the kids articulated that so clearly in a town hall. They must have felt like I'm a proper adult now.

Shiyun: It's important at TTKC that the children's voices are always valued. There are things we adults can discuss all we want, we always think we're acting in the best interest of the kids, but what are the children really experiencing? How are they feeling it? We think about wanting to care for kids, but do they feel cared for?

Yeah, often they don't.

Lavinia: I feel like I must have a town hall with my four sons. You never know what they might reveal.

A community model, not one-to-one

TFD: The volunteers you have helping you, do you find that the kids tend to latch on to them?

Shiyun: There is this attachment to certain adults. But because we are a community model, we want to see social resilience, we don't really want that one-to-one dependency, and the adults, the volunteers, know that very well. We have a code of conduct and child safeguarding guidelines. If we realise a child is particularly attached to one adult, and it could also be our staff, we'll quickly intervene and try to build that relationship with multiple adults, so we'll do group work. We're a little bit different from mentorship, which is one-to-one. We are community-based.

Lavinia: That's a great idea. You want to create that safe space, and if it's pinned to just one adult, the odds of failing the child increase, because the adult can't be there all the time. Making it community- and group-based is really wise. We've got a question on our Facebook page.

TFD: Just tell me if you can't answer it. How is TTKC funded, and will you be expanding to other parts of Singapore?

Shiyun: TTKC is currently funded by private philanthropy. We are still in discussion with the government, what sort of government funding comes in. Like I said, we're in everybody's lane, and no one's lane also. So we're in talks with different ministries about how government funding could come in. We already work with the government in terms of working relationships.

TFD: And will you be expanding to other parts of Singapore?

Shiyun: We have two clubs. There's always this question about scaling, what's next. There are many organisations and ground-up communities who want to care for children better, and I think we have found some approaches already.

But scaling up, for us, is actually more about knowledge sharing: how can we transmit some of this knowledge to many different communities, and even at homes, in the families? So we're currently not thinking, let's scale and have many clubs, but how do we share this knowledge?

What the children teach us

TFD: Here you're helping the kids, but as you do that, you must be learning things. What have the children taught you about community, about relationships?

Shiyun: Like I was sharing, the children gave us our job description. That is the thing I'm always learning from the kids: what are adults actually for, and what is this adult-to-child relationship? Increasingly, especially now that the Boon Lay centre is seven years old now, the children come a lot for their friends. Which is good; it's supposed to be like that.

So now I'm also learning from them what they seek in their friends, because among friends they also have a lot of friendship problems. In fact, we do an impact evaluation of the club year on year, and in a sense it kind of got worse, because the children know each other better, there's more conflict.

In a sense it gets worse because they will report that they don't feel so good, don't feel so safe, because there are more fights among peers. And then the adults' role starts to change, a lot more "be there when something goes wrong" rather than "play with us", because they're playing with their friends.

TFD: So within your club, they develop their own communities.

Shiyun: Yes, you will see small communities. Like yesterday, you'd see 50 kids come into the club and on the playground, all in their little small groups.

TFD: That's a lot of kids. You're doing a good job if you've got 50.

Working with parents and schools

TFD: So you said you get to know the kid, the kid joins, and then you get to meet or talk to the parents. How do you work with parents?

Shiyun: The first principle is recognising that the parents are very stressed, facing a lot of challenges, and finding stability.

So the first time we approach parents, it's always with good news: your child is doing something great. We'll share a photograph, oh, he managed to crack an egg and fry something, make something for himself. When schools call parents, it's usually because something has gone wrong. Something bad.

So we always start with: we recognise something good about your child, and that shifts their perspective of the child. Thereafter, we tend not to work with parents too much, because we know they're very busy. But when it comes to problems, higher needs, usually because of family circumstances, we'll check in with the parents on whether they need support.

TFD: Do you work with the schools these kids go to?

Shiyun: Yes, we have partnerships with schools, and we do quarterly meetings with schools and family service centres as well.

Lavinia: You take on a lot. That's a lot of work!

Shiyun: We realised that because our kids come in and tell us what's happening at home, we actually have quite a number of casework. So two, three years ago we started to develop the team, in the team we also have social workers now. When there are kids with higher needs, or risk issues, even child protection issues, that's when the social worker comes in.

Building Confidence Through Performances

TFD: You've told us about children needing confidence and resilience. Is that something you can teach, or does it come from experience?

Shiyun: It's something that you experience, I think. We don't really teach. Just like with the arts, you have to experience it and discover something about yourself. And the confidence piece is where the arts come in quite well.

I used to be from the arts space, so there are some connections for public presentations. We have this very funny thing, every Friday, we have a programme called Getai. It actually started around this time of year, during the Hungry Ghost [Festival], about four years ago, and it just became a thing. Kids come in and they are performing for their community, we have dancers, we have stand-up comedy. And over time they get better, so they then perform at the Esplanade, at one of the children's festivals. You see that after that performance, when they come back to the centre, they will walk differently, look different.

Lavinia: That's so brilliant. I can see how you're really connecting with the community in a larger sense, because of all these various activities, through the kids.

The Name "3Pumpkins"

TFD: Questions coming through on our Facebook, they're asking whether you're open to collaborations. You are, yes? All they need to do is contact you through your Instagram.

Lavinia: Maybe you can share a little about the kinds of collaborations you need or want.

Shiyun: All sorts of collaborations, from programmes, to kids' needs, and funding. Just look for 3Pumpkins on Instagram and get in touch.

In fact, the name 3Pumpkins comes from a Chinese fable, the Three Monks. The story goes like this: one monk lives in a temple on top of a hill, and every day he goes down to the river to collect water. Living like that by himself is fine. Then the second monk comes, and both of them carry water, and they start to argue about who is carrying more. Then the third one comes, and the three of them argue about who is carrying more water, who is drinking more water, to the point that all three just give up and don't want to carry water anymore. Then the temple catches fire, and the three of them finally learn how to collaborate: they build a water system. So I believe in collaboration. In fact, 3Pumpkins' vision is strengthening human connection.

Lavinia: Wonderful. So yes, you are very open to collaboration.

Being seen and being heard

TFD: Having worked with children for as long as you have, what do you think children need most from adults today?

Shiyun: Being seen and being heard. We tend to talk to our kids a lot, and to do things for the kids rather than with them. So, how do we be with them?

TFD: "With" is the operative word.

Shiyun: We also tend to like to problem-solve a lot. We're also always thinking about, it's like the KPI thing, right? What is success?

TFD: There you go, we're back on radio.

Lavinia: A great song before that, and of course a great discussion we were having on Facebook Live, please make sure you watch the full interview. One of you asked if 3Pumpkins and Tak Takut Kids Club are open to collaboration, and the answer is a definite yes. And the name 3Pumpkins itself is based on a Chinese fable whose moral of the story is collaboration. So yes, collaborate.

TFD: As you were talking about what kids need from adults: just me as a parent, I think what I did with my kids was, yes, I'm the parent, the disciplinarian and everything else, but from a very young age I tried to establish a friends relationship with my kids. Because the one thing I learned, and it's odd, is that it is easier for a child to let down their parents than to let down a friend.

Mummy and daddy will always forgive you, but a friend you can lose. Maybe the children at TTKC can feel this way too.

Parents, seniors, and the wider neighbourhood

TFD: Another one from our Facebook: will you consider a Tak Takut club for adults, some of us need to learn how to express our feelings, or maybe just get more involved with the arts? Or, not a Tak Takut Club for adults, but would you consider, for want of a better name, a parents' day, where the parents of these kids come and interact with these kids?

Shiyun: We actually have community events. Hari Raya is always the biggest one, community events is when we invite the parents in. They'll come in and they'll cook, it's like a big potluck, like a hundred over people.

Lavinia: And like you pointed out, these parents are facing a lot of challenges and are very busy, so at least there's some community outreach where the parents can get involved. I think it's a very special time for them as well, to see their kids and be with their kids. The kids would love it too.

TFD: One final question. If someone is listening now and thinks, I'd love to help, but I'm not a teacher, I'm not a counsellor, I'm not a social worker, is there still a role for them? And what can ordinary people do to help build that stronger community?

Shiyun: Our befrienders, our volunteers, even our staff may not come from this expertise. In fact, we have quite a number of people from F&B, it's about cooking, it's about caring for people. You care for kids. We do all sorts of things, gardening as well, and our activities can look like cleaning up the neighbourhood, taking care of the centre. You don't have to be an expert. You just have to have the time to be there.

Lavinia: I want to know all the activities you guys are doing. Even teaching the kids to have that sense of community by cleaning up the neighbourhood, that's really impactful. I think what you're doing is absolutely amazing, I really do. Please set up an adult club.

Shiyun: In Lengkok Bahru, we're also looking into interaction with seniors. It's a very tight neighbourhood, the kids and the seniors live very close by. And in the last month, we kept hearing news of deaths in the neighbourhood, happening very frequently. I was thinking about how children grow up in the neighbourhood alongside the seniors, and how they can interact with each other. So we're doing public placemaking work, seniors usually hang out at a particular public space, and thinking about how they can interact. We started a karaoke session for seniors and kids, called Sing Singapore. It seems they like each other enough that we're going to do this every month. So that's one way of involving the seniors. And adults can just come in and join everybody, it's quite chill and have fun.

TFD: If nothing else, if you go and join, at least you know what your child is doing in this club.

Lavinia: It's good for the parents too. You have so much to be proud of, how it has evolved from that simple action, that simple want, and how it's now involved in so many lives, for different generations you are impacting. Hats off to you.

Shiyun: It's really learning from the community. If it's not always learning and adapting, the work wouldn't have grown this way.

Quick-fire

TFD: We're going to end the interview with quick-fire questions, we say something, you give us the first thing that comes into your head. One thing every child should be allowed to do?

Shiyun: Play.

Lavinia: Free play or structured play?

Shiyun: Free play.

TFD: Finally, after seven years with TTKC, what do you hope these children will carry with them as they grow up?

Shiyun: Culture of care.

Lavinia: Beautiful. Shiyun, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing something truly, truly remarkable. We wish you all the best, and we're going to keep a close eye on how you continue to grow.